More details about the NCAA’s investigation of USC are leaking out this week after USC Rivals site USCFootball.com reported late last night on previously unreleased NCAA investigative documents.
Many of those documents, which include interview transcripts of USC assistant football coach Todd McNair, are littered with errors that can’t help but call the NCAA’s ultimate findings into question.
McNair’s alleged knowledge of Reggie Bush taking improper benefits from sports marketing agent Lloyd Lake is the heart of the NCAA’s case against USC. It was that alleged proof that led the NCAA to drop its harshest penalties on a football program since the SMU Death Penalty sanction.
Early this morning I posted about the NCAA’s errors in interviewing McNair and Lake. Errors that led to a lack of due process and prevented the establishment of indisputable proof that McNair knew what Lake was doing with Bush.
The most serious of those mistakes were during the investigation of a Jan. 2006 phone call in which Lake called McNair. Despite those discrepancies, the NCAA cited that call as perhaps its most prominent evidence in its case against USC.
The NCAA also attempted to point to calls McNair made to Lake in March 2005 as evidence that he knew what Bush was up to with Lake.
The circumstances, per NCAA investigative documents and USCFootball.com:
Bush was to host a recruit after the Oct. 29, 2005 USC-Washington State game considered the nation’s the top high school prospect.
McNair made repeated attempts to contact Reggie Bush in regards to the top recruit’s official visit. But Bush, on a post-game outing with family and friends, including Lake and Michaels, left the recruit waiting in his hotel room while they ate dinner. The recruit would later verify that timeline.
Among the numerous calls McNair placed to Bush and the recruit that night, three were to a 619 area code that was not Bush’s number. That number, cited from McNair’s USC phone records, belonged to Lake.
The NCAA assistant director of enforcement, Richard Johanningmeier immediately questioned McNair’s credibility when he denied knowing Lake or having any recollection of whose phone number he’d called that night.
“So as you can see from our standpoint, we’re having a lot of problems with your credibility and I have to tell you that there’s a good possibility that, uh, the NCAA could allege a, uh, ethical conduct charge of providing us false, misleading information in the fact that you denied that you know him, we have the telephone calls and we have a photograph with you with people that you say that you don’t know.”
The phone calls and photo were cited as proof despite McNair’s explanation that the three one-minute calls were to a number Bush had given him earlier when Bush’s cellphone wasn’t working. Lake, in his interview, didn’t recall the phone calls.
The photo, which USC was never allowed to see in its original format, had been altered, according to an expert in the university’s response to the NCAA’s allegations. McNair and his easily recognized actor-friend had posed for photos frequently according to his testimony.
Despite pages of documentation covering the Oct. 29 calls, the photo and statements of McNair’s “lack of credibility” the June 10 Infractions Report did not cite this as evidence that the assistant football coach must have had knowledge of the illegal benefits.
So thanks in part to trio of :60 calls McNair made to Lake, that Lake didn’t recall receiving, the NCAA surmised that McNair knew that Lake was partly responsible for giving Bush $300,000 in improper benefits. (The evidence involved in that part of the investigation was so dubious that the NCAA’s own Committee On Infractions threw it out.)
But the question remains: Why was McNair calling Lake that night in a seemingly desperate attempt to reach Bush?
Not named in NCAA investigative documents was the recruit Bush was charged with hosting that October night. In the past 24 hours, a L.A. media source and NCAA source have independently confirmed to me that Percy Harvin was that recruit.
Harvin that year was the top high school football prospect in the country and McNair had been assigned by coach Pete Carroll as his primary recruiter for the Trojans.
That leads us back to this passage:
McNair made repeated attempts to contact Reggie Bush in regards to the top recruit’s official visit. But Bush, on a post-game outing with family and friends, including Lake and Michaels, left the recruit waiting in his hotel room while they ate dinner. The recruit would later verify that timeline.
Among the numerous calls McNair placed to Bush and the recruit that night, three were to a 619 area code that was not Bush’s number. That number, cited from McNair’s USC phone records, belonged to Lake.
Translation: McNair found out through Harvin that Bush, who was out with Lake that night, was blowing off the top recruit in country. A recruit McNair was personally responsible for.
More:
The phone calls and photo were cited as proof despite McNair’s explanation that the three one-minute calls were to a number Bush had given him earlier when Bush’s cellphone wasn’t working. Lake, in his interview, didn’t recall the phone calls.
Is it unreasonable to think that all three of those calls may have merely gone to voicemail? And if you’re McNair, in your desperation to reach Bush, was it not reasonable to call Lake’s number to try to reach Bush?
Nobody has been harder on USC, Reggie Bush, Pete Carroll and Mike Garrett the past month about running a renegade program than me. But the more you dig into the NCAA’s case against USC, the more it becomes clear that the NCAA failed to indisputably prove that USC had direct knowledge of Bush taking hundreds of thousands of dollars of improper benefits.
That cannot be ignored.
12:17 pm on June 25th, 2010
I’ve got to hand it to you, Brooksy. You’re finally sticking up for USC after dogging them for so long.
Keep up the good work….the truth is out there. And the truth is, the NCAA is just as crooked as David Stern.
12:22 pm on June 25th, 2010
If I read this correctly, then the title of this article is totally misleading. Don’t try to bring UF into this.
12:44 pm on June 25th, 2010
17 out of 20, Brooks. Suck it.
12:46 pm on June 25th, 2010
ohhhhhhhh thats why harvin went to florida cause they left him in his hotel room and didnt invite him to dinner LOL
1:05 pm on June 25th, 2010
USC got caught. Plain and Simple. In their zeal to win Pete Carroll and his staff looked past a lot of things and now it is coming back to haunt them.
1:09 pm on June 25th, 2010
x
1:23 pm on June 25th, 2010
Brooks has to be so happy about this, being the huge USC honk that he is. Incidentally, I hate Florida just like most of the country, but somehow implicating Harvin with that headline is just wrong. Weak piece of “journalism”.
1:41 pm on June 25th, 2010
this is silly to just look at bits and pieces of the document. I can understand the desire to overturn this, but it is too late. This is a procedural issue. SC had their hearing, had their time, had their lawyers and now they are just nit picking. A few details like this dont change the larger body of work here. You are just being gullible.
1:49 pm on June 25th, 2010
Not sure what would surprise me less, that USC having recruiting violations, or the NCAA bungling something up.
1:52 pm on June 25th, 2010
Brooks, you made a mistake with date as well. The article on Rivals claimed the call took place on Jan. 2006 not Jan. 2005 as the report stated. You have Jan. 2008 above. Even if the the date is inaccurate:
A. Due process is not part of the NCAA, it’s part of the constitution. There is no right to any due process for a voluntary member of the NCAA.
B. It’s up to USC, Bush, et al. to prove their innocence and no one did. Look at the transcript on Rivals of McNair’s interview, does that sound like a forthcoming testimony? I don’t think so. It’s a lot of “umms” and “I don’t remember”. Not a convincing detailed explanation of how McNair only met Lake once and used his number to contact Bush re: recruits. How about the fact he talks to Lake for 1.5 minutes and then immediately calls Bush for 17 mins? Did he need to call Lake that time? Come on man.
C. Harvin??? I’m a seminole and even I’m aloof on that one.
D. While you may be able to question McNair’s knowledge in fashion reasonable doubt, what the SC rivals site, and all SC fans I have spoken to, fail to address was even if he didn’t know, should he have known. And the answer to that is an over resounding yes. Everyone in that department should have known the guys hanging around Bush were shipping his parents to games and keeping them up in a House in SD. For not knowing, not self reporting when it became known (through Yahoo) not ever helping the investigation except with “umms” and “I don’t remembers”, not proving that Bush didn’t receive benefits, USC suffers:
1. 2 Year Bowl ban for 2 Bowls Bush played in–This is parity
2. 30 Scholarships lost over 3 years-Harsh, but this is a repeat violator case with a ruling of LOIC agains the entire athletic department for violations in Football, Basketball, and Tennis, with other investigations pending. They will be lucky to get this reduced at all. In the SC mind they expected to take more hits on BBall and remain softer on Football, but the NCAA knows how meaningless BBall penalties would be, so they hit them where it counts. It’s totally up to the committee and despite minor errors this does not change the overall power behind the penalties. Good luck trojans, you’ll need a lot of it just to get yourselves down to 25 scholies.
2:21 pm on June 25th, 2010
As one of the few neutral blogs offering fair and reasonable analysis of this situation, Brooks, I commend you. USC deserves sanctions for not monitoring their star athletes more closely, but the Death Penalty Light sanctions meted out by the NCAA in their railroading report proves that this has largely been a witch hunt. Down with the NCAA!!! Thanks Brooks!
2:22 pm on June 25th, 2010
USC is guilty whether a few details are 100% accurate or not. Hell, do we actually believe that we know EVERYTHING that even actually happened?
USC deserves what they got
2:23 pm on June 25th, 2010
The whole world knew Bush and family were taking money, houses, etc. Even I knew. Brooks you cannot be serious with this nonsense. Of course the coaches were aware and tried to turn a blind eye.
2:33 pm on June 25th, 2010
“The whole world knew….” Exactly how?? From that piece of crap hooptie Bush was driving? I bet most people looked at his tricked out Impala and felt he deserved to drive something nicer.
2:37 pm on June 25th, 2010
Reggie Bush told me all I needed to know by his actions during and after the investigation. He dodged everybody and refused to talk to the NCAA for years. An innocent person doesn’t do that. Then, when the NCAA finally ruled, Bush was talking to the media within a day or two saying he would do whatever he could to help USC win the appeal. Really, Reggie? You hid for four years and now your going to put a show on about riding in to the rescue? Reminds me of another USC RB who looked for the real killers for a dozen years on every golf course where he could avoid being arrested for not paying the judgement against him.
2:46 pm on June 25th, 2010
Wow…..USC PR machine is in it’s full glory! Well timed with the appeal that was recently filed. The long post above by FSULaw I believe sums it up accurately. USC cheated, they got caught, and they got punished. Everyone who was within 1,000 miles of campus knew this crap was going on. Heck, even the Daily News’ USC Football beat writer, Scott Wolf, said on his blog when the Joe McKnight “Baby Mamma’s” car story broke: “Not sure what will come of this, but honestly you guys would have been amazed at all the new SUVs USC football players were driving during the Bush years. We didn’t report on it at the time because we thought the university would resolve the matter at a later date.” Of course the university, which you are steadfastly defending with this load of crap PR story, didn’t resolve that matter or ANY matter related to transgressions with it’s football program. But they did get serious enough about the football situation to throw their basketball team to the wolves. Keep in mind USC NEVER self reported ANY violations in football even when everyone in the nation was hearing about it from Yahoo sports. At best this is a clear case of gross negligence and lack of institutional control at USC. At worst it was sanctioned cheating. The NCAA gave the benefit of the doubt and ruled they were guilty of the former which brought stiff enough penalties. I hope USC and their boosters are paying you enough to post this tripe.
4:09 pm on June 25th, 2010
That the NCAA investigator mis-stated the year of the Jan. phone call is IRRELEVANT.
That happened in a pre-hearing interview.
McNair still testified for 8 HOURS in Feb. before the COI. The COI did not have the date wrong, and I’m quite certain the Enforcement Staff got the date right before the COI — afterall, they had the flipping cell phone bill in front of them.
The question is whether the proceeding before the COI was “fair”, not whether factual mistakes were made during the Enforcement Staff’s questioning of witnesses at a time they were still trying to gather facts.
McNair’s credibility problems were laid out by the COI, and it went beyond this one phone call. His story on several issues shifted over time, with new details being added to resolve discrepancies between his early interviews and those of other witnesses — like his explanation of who he went to Marshall Faulk’s birthday party with, why he went, how he got tickets, etc.
4:58 pm on June 25th, 2010
USC got caught…….Period!.
6:14 pm on June 25th, 2010
The nc2a gave us the B(c)S….
That is a bigger crime to College Football than anything ANY college or players have ever done…
What is the punnishment for that?
SCrew the nc2a!
Fight On!
6:26 pm on June 25th, 2010
my biggest question is, why is mcnair still employed by usc? wouldn’t a school that was interested in cleaning up it’s act, fire this guy? maybe mcnair knows where all the bodies are buried, and usc is scared to cut him loose
7:16 pm on June 25th, 2010
“The NCAA put the Sooners on probation for three years, prohibited them from post-season play for two, and gave a one-year TV ban. In addition the NCAA zapped 24 of OU’s scholarships, a number that ranks in the top 5 for single violations over the relevant time frame (only Cincinnati, Auburn, and Miami had more). ”
You may want to check yourself Brooks, looks like USC still gets some tv time.
7:48 pm on June 25th, 2010
Yet the most daming piece of evidence is the washer and dryer the agents bought for the Bush family in San Diego, and USC had no knowledge of this = penalty deserved!!
8:03 pm on June 25th, 2010
Stoops dismissed Bomar and Quinn relatively quickly, for which the Sooners were credited, but the NCAA noted the duration of the violation as an enhancing factor in the slap on the wrist that Oklahoma received. The Sooners will see their probation extended by two years, they lose four scholarships, and they had to vacate their wins in which Bomar and Quinn participated (the vacated games are being appealed).
Scoreboard:
Unethical conduct: ‘88 (5 points)
Failure to monitor: ‘07 (10 points)
Lack of institutional control: ‘88 (10 points)
Probation: 5 years total (10 points)
Post-season ban: 2 years (6 points)
Television ban: 1 year (3 points)
Initial scholarships: 28 (14 points)
Total: 58.00 points (1988: 42 points; 2007: 16 points)
If it’s not Oklahoma, Alabama,or Miami… who’s going to be number one?
8:14 pm on June 25th, 2010
This boils down to the following:
1) Did USC know about Bush’s benefits, thus proving an institutional coverup of the illicit activity, OR
2) Did USC not now about Bush’s benefits?
If your are a member of Hater Nation dancing on USC’s grave, then you must provide some data that prove that USC knew about Bush. Without that data, then USC is guilty of nothing more than weak compliance, which allowed an agent to get to a star player to induce him to leave the school early for the pros. A need for improvement by USC, sure, but not a crime or a major violation. Of course, Hater Nation has no clue what it’s like to be the highest profile football team in the nation’s 2nd largest media market. Neither does the NCAA.
9:34 pm on June 25th, 2010
The biggest point was that the NCAA kept hammering McNair about calls in January 8, 2005. McNair didn’t remember making calls on that date saying it was right after the Orange Bowl, and that he was probably on a recruiting trip. The NCAA determined he was lying, which was seemingly the key point in determining his guilt.
It turns out McNair did not recall the calls because the calls on the phone bills were actually made in January 2006. The NCAA was seemingly totally incompetent in its questioning, but since crimes needed to fit the punishment the NCAA had in mind, they didn’t care about this, and made no effort to reinterview him.
People keep saying USC cheated and got caught, but anyone who objectively reads the transcripts has a hard time walking away with that conclusion. For that reason, people who have their minds made up, do not take the time to read them.
Basically, the NCAA said they have proven is that Bush’s running back coach knew that Reggie was being given money by would-be agents who were bribing him to leave USC early? Why would he allow that?
The only proof they really have is Lake’s confused and self-contradicting testimony, which is supported by nobody, including his girlfriend and his sister’s testimonies.
USC is guilty of obscene arrogance on the part of Mike Garrett, and for having a very weak compliance department. As the transcripts reveal, evidence about anything else is ridiculously weak.
Are USC’s transgressions worth the loss of 30 scholarships, 2 bowl games, and 14 victories? If you are a USC hater, then the answer is yes. If you are the NCAA with an agenda the answer is yes. If you are a USC fan, the answer is no.
If you are an impartial jury however, the answer should be nowhere near as clearcut.
I have a feeling the NCAA appeals committee will just rubber-stamp the infraction committee’s finding. Due process and hard evidence are not what the NCAA is all about.
10:30 pm on June 25th, 2010
Gloat all you want, SC will come back even stronger. The NCAA is out to show their power. They are simply an outdated and overwhelmed figurehead. They may see the penalties don’t fit the infraction, and come to their senses…but I doubt it. Just another bureaucratic waste of time.
12:19 am on June 26th, 2010
Somehow I don’t believe that the quotes in the article are the only thing that lost them 30 scholarships and 2 bowl bids.
And for the record, it should be the next two bowl games they could go to, not for the 2010 and 11 seasons. See how that would affect recruiting.
12:34 am on June 26th, 2010
man all these haters need to shut up. Bruins screw off. Bill walton said ucla would have to give up 8 of their 10 titles with these rules. read his book. USC forever. we deserved the title the 2007 2008 2009. screw every hater out there
2:11 am on June 26th, 2010
It’s not really just one dubious fact in a string of such facts. The bottom line is the same doubt exists on both sides USC/NCAA. Bush never testified and if he was so true blue then he would have simply cleared the air long ago…Petes departure spoke volumes, the guy is a marginal NFL coach and coached in the Mecca of College Football (honesty why would he leave?). I am an Alabama fan and truly feel your pain…the last Bama infraction was linked to an independent alumnus…never traced or proven to be linked to the university. The NCAA had no other choice than to hammer USC…there was already legal council standing by at Bama & Miami in case anything dramatically lesser was imposed. I do believe because USC is a brand…like it or not…the penalties will be reduced but, no solar ships will be given back. This reduction will allow the rest of the PAC 10/12 to catch-up by getting 4&5 star recruits they normally would not have got.
2:58 am on June 26th, 2010
exactly how much does the ncaa make of college atheletes period. give us all a break if usc is guilty then every college is guilty. the ncaaout to be ashamed of themselves for exploiting these kids make all the money and tell them there familys cant benifit unless they go pro. how many go pro this is the most crooked bs i have evere seen. u all know it too whether u want to be honest about or not,its all bull bs.
3:05 am on June 26th, 2010
all of this ncaa bs is terrible they make so much money off these atheletes is terrible. dont tell me about and them getting and education either. what if they end up in a wheel chair or even worse loose their life. no comparison to what they make versus the atheletes and their familys risk
4:44 am on June 26th, 2010
One critical thing you overlook. The NCAA follows a unique set of procedures designed inside an administrative law framework. Under the Administrative Procedures Act, hearsay evidence is admissible. Therefore, during the hearings and fact-finding portion of the investigation, just about any statement will be admitted for the truth of the matter asserted. By and through that mechanism, USC was doomed from the very beginning. If you want to reform the process, you have to start by reforming the admissibility of hearsay either at the NCAA, or inside the body of administrative law that our country and states have created.
7:28 am on June 26th, 2010
USC got caught. Bush’s family got caught. McNair got caught. USC was able to cover this for 5 years the should be sanctioned hard! Make a statement that becasue most or all of the peices are gone does not mean that your school won’t pay for your transgressions. Bush is a talented idiot. People seem to forget Bush paid Lake’s partner over $300,000 to sign a gag order basically. Why in the hell would anyone pay a person $300,000 to shut up if they are not guilty.
8:05 am on June 26th, 2010
I have to laugh out loud at all you idiots trying to make excuses for U$C. They’ve been dirty for years. Anyone who lives in LA and who isn’t wearning crimson & gold glasses will tell you that. The thing with Bush is just the tip of the iceberg. There was a lot of other dirt that will never be made public. The NCAA should have slammed them even harder than they did, but at least they didn’t get off with a slap on the wrist like I thought they might.
8:36 am on June 26th, 2010
I think it was George Bush and not Reggie, USC should try this defense it seems to work for the democrats. These kids need to jump into the Canadian league and just by pass college altogether! It is unbelievable that Reggie could not capitalize on his star power in America just because a college is paying his tution. I can’t stand USC because Charles White fumbled on the 2 yard line and they still gave him a touch down against U of M in the Rose Bowl. These kids make so much money for the schools and yet tution seems to keep shooting to the moon, hmm. Where does all the money go? I say lets kill college sports and turn them back into clubs as they should be.
8:44 am on June 26th, 2010
By the way what a cheap shot putting a Gator as a lead suggesting there was involvement by Florida and Percy, you should be ashamed of yourself! Who provided the cars for the Bush family? Who provided the house for the Bush family. I think it’s great these schools get beat down because they have a made a deal with the devil by keeping this kids from earning on their fame and god given talents and keeping all the botty for themselves and then act like saints by claiming they provide a top notch education. What’s amazing is that 50% of these kids in college would fail a simple reading and writing exam and the schools know it and provide tutors to write papers and take tests for their jocks so they can make money off them. Evil
10:15 am on June 26th, 2010
wah wah , boo hoo , woe is us , have mercy , please Lord , we is de victums , go O. J. , go Reggie , Go Petey , da in see duble a is turrible , etc. , etc , . Grow the f*** up .
10:35 am on June 26th, 2010
we iz so purty , any buddy as purty as uz culdn’t uv dun dis. owh lordy we iz purty .
1:17 pm on June 26th, 2010
This is a pretty good article. However, it doesn’t help as the NCAA has already sanctioned USC. Can they appeal using the information you laid out?
5:29 pm on June 26th, 2010
If there is anyone, including USC homers, that doesn’t believe the entire USC sports operation isn’t one of the most corrupt in CF, they have to be the same people that believe they are going to get free health care by taxing the wealthy who will foot the whole bill and their own taxes will remain constant.
7:49 pm on June 26th, 2010
‘It doesn’t say Florida was guilty of anything anywhere in the article it just shows a picture of the athlete that Reggie was supposed to be hosting. If you want to look in to what Florida is doing, try finding out how much money was donated to the Tebow family church from Gaytor boosters while Timmy was plying for Florida…. I guarantee its well over 300K
9:31 pm on June 26th, 2010
It really comes down to what you want to believe. Those that want USC banned from ever playing football again are dancing in the streets. Even if the truth is USC did nothing wrong they will not believe it, they want USC hammered no matter what for whatever the reason. However, they may not be able to dance for long.
Those that believe that USC has been hit far too harshly for something that was taking place over a 100 miles away with the parents will also tell you that some of the control proceedures were lacking.
The NCAA is supposed to be fair and inbiased in it’s dealings and investigations, but when they start questioning details using the wrong dates what kind of response did they think they were going to get? The NCAA is makes millions on Universities and athletes, yet pretends to sit on the high ground. They have hit Alabama. Miami, Oklahoma and several other Universities without using the same yard stick. Instead of using common sense, they bend to public opinion.
The NCAA is running scared that they are losing their power and USC is not the only University that is going to get hammered. In the next few months those that are facing NCAA investigations should be concerned. They cannot hammer one University and then let another one off with a wrist slap. Those that are jumping for joy at the penalty handed to USC will be the first to yell rape if the NCAA nails their program, especially if the penalty doesn’t fit the crime or if they are NOT given a chance to cross examine the witness who gave testimony that convicted them.
10:15 pm on June 26th, 2010
“the NCAA failed to indisputably prove…”
The entire problem with this articule and a good deal of arguments is the premise quoted right there. The NCAA does not work like a court of law. A better understanding of the NCAA and their relationship to the universities would be really helpful before pontificating about this one case.
USC is a member of what?
The NCAA
And by agreeing to be a member they agree to what?
The agreed upon rules
Who is responsible for making sure USC does so?
USC
Really USC is responsible for making sure they are compliant?
Yes USC is responsible for USC’s compliance - its an honor system.
And what should they do if they discover a problem?
Self investigate in a transparent manner, self report and propose a self imposed penalty.
It is true that no coach, athletic director or compliance office can know everything. But they ARE suppose to foster an environment that effectively teaches, executes, and respects the rules.
USC’s participation in the investigation was often construed as arrogant and restrictive. Their own investigation was opaque. They did not self report. They fostered an environment where Snoop Dog hangs out on the sidelines and Agents are friendly with the coaches in the lockerrooms. They exhibited a cavalier attitude regarding secondary violations, because the benefit they get from; 1.giving a kid a ride in a limo, 2.having a former player hoot and hollar at them in his greek restaurant, 3.having a former heisman winning running back call a rb recruit - oh wait I mispoke, 4.setting a poverty level reciever up to stay in a $4000/mo apartment with his qb, 5.etc. far out weighs the penalty.
And most importantly USC sat in front of the Committee on Infractions and told them “how are we suppose to know.” (see the great Pete Carroll’s youtube response for kicks.)
The Committee on Infractions (otherwise known as the COI) - is a stickly bunch. And the thing they hate the most is the “how are we suppose to know” response.
The “how” in that statement is USC’s responsibility not the NCAA.
Couple all of it together and well… lack of institutional control. 30 scholarships, 2 year ban…..
The COI often talks about cases with regards to the number of 3″ binders. 1 and 2 binder investigations are common. A 3 binder investigation is rare. Alabama had a 3 binder investigation in 2002. They lost 6 or 7 scholarships for a few years and a 2 year ban.
The COI had 8 (count em
3″ binders on USC. Their case doesn’t stem solely on two quotes that could fit on twitter and a phone call.
Do your homework, Brooks.
I suggest starting with a google search of the COI.
10:28 pm on June 26th, 2010
And if you’re McNair, in your desperation to reach Bush, was it not reasonable to call Lake’s number to try to reach Bush?
———————————————
So, Reggie’s coach Todd McNair is in a situation where he’s desperate to reach Reggie about an important appointment and the first person he calls is…….. Lloyd Lake? A guy who isn’t a family member/relative or close family friend of Bush or a coach or university employee? A guy who didn’t know Bush before he was at USC? And he calls him three times? And that doesn’t seem fishy? It sounds like Lake was basically playing the role of a business manager to Bush and McNair was fully aware of it.
10:38 pm on June 26th, 2010
Soup
That’s one opinion - you read it anyway you feel comfortable with, I choose to read it differently.
You and those who want USC to get hammered see it one way, those of us who feel the NCAA in unjust and are biased see it another way.
12:33 am on June 27th, 2010
1 . O.J. ‘ I did not find Ron and Nicoles killer on the golf course so I’ll look in the Nevada penal system. 2. Reggie ” I’m happy my cooperation with the NCAA helped to clear up this matter and I certainly anticipate my future cooperation with the IRS is equally as succesful ” . 3 . Petey ” I hope the tailwind from my departure to the Seahawks hasn’t caused any problems . Lots of love and ” FIGHT ON ” .
9:39 am on June 27th, 2010
Mav6 -
I agree mav. Mine is one opinion. Problem is, its the COI’s opinion, hence it is the only one that matters.
All this talk radio quibbling is good for ratings, and internet fodder. But the NCAA operates in a certain way and any argument that includes a proviso like “the NCAA failed to indisputably prove…” is trying to apply court of law standards instead of NCAA standards. And that ultimately makes the argument moot. The court of law is the minimum governing standard of deterrence, the NCAA is impart an educational body striving for idealize honor system behavior from its constituent members.
Whether it should or shouldn’t be that way is open to interpretation. But for the time being it is that way, and USC look the NCAA in the eye and said, “how are we suppose to know” anyways.
And now there are threats to sue because the NCAA did not meet the burden of proof. That’s just a fundamental misunderstanding of the NCAA and the process. The courts have no jurisdiction in this matter.
For or against USC is kinda irrelevant.
What I am saying is that USC’s attitude toward the NCAA and all of these issues is what proved to be their downfall, not any one incident, not bush, not lake, not a phonecall, not a …. etc.
These incidents sometimes happen to good universities, good people. What is important is how the university deals with it.
Ohio State self reported a $500 check that was cut from a booster, and suspended their future heisman winner Troy Smith for 2 games including a bowl. How were they suppose to know? It doesn’t matter, they found out and reported it and dealt with it.
I repeat $500. Not $19,000 in rent, Not a $300,000 house.
Upon allegations that Rhett Bomar (there starting gb at the time) was into something bad at Oklahoma with a car salesman, they self reported then suspended, then dismissed him. Right before the season no less.
Michigan recently followed the allegation of over-practicing with an self conducted investigation, self report, and self proposed sanctions for a few minutes of extra time.
Given their chance with issues that were as big as perhaps half a million dollars, USC stonewalled and merely claimed, “how were we suppose to know.”
The difference is night and day, and the penalty is not all that surprising to anyone except USC fans.
10:14 pm on June 27th, 2010
after reading posts from haters i have to say your pathetic. Lies, misleading and the BS stories are not the facts. all of you just told me a whole lot about yourselves. so no matter what your only way to beat USC is by lying and misleading and bending truth? so this is it. facts are facts. your willing to get the upper hand on USC by this route. IT SCREAMS THAT YOUR WILLING TO DO ANYTHING (lie,mislead,slander) TO BEAT USC. Trojan fans at-least want to play the best on their best. So those of you that refuse to look at the matter for what it is worth give college football a bad name.
Nobody has any hard evidence on USC. Not one person has said “yes they know” not one. all on assumption. But “USC has been corrupt for years and they know it”. In all honesty ( i have said this plenty) 4 years of investigations and the best that they can come up with is this . all speculations and assumptions?! To me that is damn good! I know most big programs would not past the scrutiny that USC has.
2:43 am on June 28th, 2010
Trojan fans at-least want to play the best on their best. So those of you that refuse to look at the matter for what it is worth give college football a bad name
——————————————————————-
Trojan fans want to see their semi-pro football team playing other schools’ legitimately amateur teams. Everybody likes to say “they did what they did on the field so…”. But, when it’s common knowledge that your players get free houses, rooms in apartments, SUVs, etc, it’s lot easier to recruit better players to do what they do on the field. And that’s what gives college football a bad name.
It’s not like USC is the only school these things happen to. Ever notice how every team John Calipari goes to suddenly gets great recruits and gets to the Final Four? We all saw what his teams did out on the court. But then when the NCAA finds that they used underhanded techniques to get those players on the court, the wins get thrown out. The difference is Memphis and UMass aren’t filled with millions of self-entitled crybabies who think they can do no wrong, so the rest of the country doesn’t have to deal with their complaining.
3:29 am on June 28th, 2010
Amazing the ignorant and bias childish USC haters who are trying to justify the crap that the NCAA dumped on USC. Some say the NCAA are not under legal laws so to bad USC etc etc….People GO READ the NCAA BYLAWS and the report from both sides of this issue.
THE NCAA CLEARLY BROKE NUMEROUS NCAA Bylaws. They have dug them a very deep hole. If they do not do some damage control there looking at serious issues from other NCAA Div 1 schools as we move forward. So stop the hate. BROOKS is right on this time !
The question is not what Reggie received in gifts. Its the way the NCAA reached there conclusion. Complete and totally by unproven info from a convicted 8 time felon. Who went back to prison even after one of there interviews with him. Read the depositions. It is blatently obvious the bias corruption and approach taken. They have broken there own NCAA bylaws and have drawn conclusions without facts. They also attempt to confuse the public with pages of unproven statements and try to discredit anyone who questions them. Take off the blinders people. The NCAA blew it this time. And even though the appeal will be upheld by these corrupt morons called the NCAA. It will hurt the college game. You will see a serious lawsuit from MCNAIR and he will win easily. This is not just about USC anymore. Read before you attack Brooks here. He is right on !
3:40 am on June 28th, 2010
Trevor is a child molester, he likes to play with little boys butts and has a well under his house where he keeps 2 or 3 little boys, who’s butts he likes to play with, at all times. Trevor cant help this behavior because Trevor’s dad molested him when he was a young boy too.
Of course I have no proof of any of this, just as Trevor has no proof that USC ever paid anyone to go to USC and play football for the school. I just thought Trevor might like to see what it was like to see someone talking out their butt about something they cant prove, all I need now is to get enough other people to vomit out the same insanity about Trevor molesting young boys and well, I guess it will be all the proof anyone needs to convict Trevor of being a child molester.
Nobody at USC is paying any of USCs players or recruits to come to USC, they’re not getting free houses or suv’s, hell Reggie was driving a 12 year old Chevy shitbox with a blue book value under 5 grand. Did some unethical agent wannabes sink their teeth in to Reggies stepfather and get him to convince Reggie to leave USC early, yes, but they can not prove that anyone at USC knew that. Even the phone call the NCAA said proved that a USC assistant coach knew that Reggie’s stepfather was taking money was made a day after Reggie declared he was going to the draft. How are they going to suspend a player that is no longer playing for or attending the school?
What makes the least amount of sense is that the Griffens didnt move in to the house until April of 2005 and moved out in Jan 2006, why would USC be forced to forfeit games 4 months before anyone at USC broke any rules? What was 10 months rent on that house worth? 15,000/20,000 dollars? certainly not the 300,000 dollars people are saying it was worth.
USC should have known that something was up when the Griffens started showing up at road games Reggie’s junior year but if the compliance department made inquiries to that and were given a satisfactory answer, why should they continue investigating, are they supposed to treat their black athletes families like criminals? especially when Reggies mother is a Sheriffs Deputy?
The NCAA went over board to appease the fans of other schools, they set out to remove what they feel was an unfair advantage that USC has because of its location and the star power of its fan base and alumni. Had Larry the Cable Guy or Billy Bob Tripp (or whatever) had the same draw to 17 year old urban football players as the stars in LA at the Coliseum do, then Nebraska and Oklahoma would be getting crapped on by the NCAA and other schools crying that they cant compete with a school that other people want to go to more than theirs.
9:41 am on June 28th, 2010
It looks like a few of you are misspeaking. So I took the liberty of fixing your quotes. Rest assured that I demonstrate the changes with both a leading and trailing ** indicator so that everyone is aware.
____
1.
IAN SAID -
“after reading posts from **NCAA** haters i have to say you’re pathetic. Lies, misleading and the BS stories are not the facts. all of you just told me a whole lot about yourselves. so no matter what your only way to beat the **NCAA** is by lying and misleading and bending truth? so this is it. facts are facts. your willing to get the upper hand on the **NCAA** by this route. IT SCREAMS THAT YOUR WILLING TO DO ANYTHING (lie,mislead,slander) TO **WIN**.”
2.
CAM SAID -
“Amazing the ignorant and bias childish **NCAA** haters who are trying to justify the crap that the **USC** did. ”
3.
SCMICK SAID -
“…but if the compliance department made inquiries to that and were given a satisfactory answer, why should they continue investigating. **Because it is USC’s responsibility to police themselves. How they determine the means to do so is up to them. Their methods proved inadequate. But more importantly they continue to say, “how are we suppose to know” and at no point self reported/self sanctioned. Passing responsibility to no one when USC shirked their responsibilities (allbeit perhaps unintentionally) is the biggest problem they have and thus brought the hammer.**”
_____
I couldn’t agree with you all more.
Whenever you find yourself saying, “Wah, Wah, everybody hates me.” Or you look around and you have a problem with everyone else.
Newsflash. You are the problem.
11:29 am on June 28th, 2010
Thanks Brooks for taking the time to read about the “facts” of the case. You are now seeing what us SC grads have always known. The NCAA don’t have crap.
1:18 pm on June 28th, 2010
Yes Brooks thanks for looking at the facts.
Like how the NCAA is not a policing body.
How it is USC’s responsibility to remain compliant.
How the COI is only called in to respond to infractions, self reported/self penalized or otherwise.
How the COI always prefers that a university takes initiative to correct the mistakes made by themselves and their representatives including their student athletes. And by doing so, fosters an environment of compliance, both proactively preventative and retroactively corrective.
How the COI never prefers the “Well, we didn’t know and since we didn’t know we are innocent” tactic.
How the COI deals with negligence — i.e. not knowing that ex-cons are buttering up star players is as bad as ignoring or facilitating it.
How the COI specifically says “The general campus environment surrounding the violations troubled the committee. When citing the lack of institutional control finding, the committee noted the university failed to heed clear warning signs; did not have proper procedures in place to monitor rules compliance; failed to regulate access to practice and facilities, including locker rooms; and in some instances failed to take a proactive stance or investigate concerns.” (notice the quotes - these are here because this passage comes directly out of the COI’s press release.”
5:00 pm on June 28th, 2010
What about the money Reggie Bush Payed the Guys before his Deposition? No body has mentioned that out of this whole blog. If you were not guilty why pay back the money? Food for you mind to chew on
9:00 am on June 29th, 2010
Since when does the NCAA have to “indisputably prove” anything? That’s not even the standard for a criminal conviction in a court of law. We’ve literally executed people without “indisputable proof.” Get a little perspective.
1:07 pm on June 29th, 2010
Clearly there are folks in this comment thread opting to play the martyr role; wanting USC to pay the price EVEN THOUGH there is no direct evidence.
2:26 pm on June 29th, 2010
USC did the crime and now they need to do the time. Lou Holtz said it best when he called the The University of Spoiled Children.
3:58 pm on June 29th, 2010
G.I. Trojan - you’re right there are alot of Martyr’s on here, but you sir are an idiot.
you say:
“Clearly there are folks in this comment thread opting to play the martyr role; wanting USC to pay the price EVEN THOUGH there is no direct evidence.”
A quick trip to the dictionary would help you immensely:
A martyr is somebody who suffers persecution or death for the people, a country or an organization, or refusing to renounce a belief, usually religious, political or rights.
Your comment would make sense if it said this:
“Clearly there are folks in this comment thread opting to play the martyr role; USC fans are willing to afix themselves to an indefensible position out of supposed principle.”
By the way, i know all of this comes as shock to you and all the other USC fans, and none of you are to blame. You feel taken, and hurt.
But denial is only step one.
Next is anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.
I know this is a hard concept to grasp, and I will explain this again, direct evidence has nothing to do with it. The thing that pisses the COI off the most is when a university shirks their responsibility to foster an effective compliance environment. That includes strategies to educate and monitor, as well as react to and correct transgressions.
That is where USC failed. They were obstructive, not transparent, not thorough on their investigations, had open relationships with Agents in their lockerrooms, had a laundry list of secondary violations, and though no one is denying that Reggie took money, USC has yet to do anything about it, because they think because they had no knowledge of it at the time, they are not at fault.
Who’s fault is it then? Oklahoma’s?
Do you see the problem? Reggie took money, USC did not know about it the time. But they haven’t taken corrective procedures since learning about its possibility, and they have been the opposite of open and helpful with the NCAA.
The comment directly from the COI’s press release on the matter:
“The general campus environment surrounding the violations troubled the committee. When citing the lack of institutional control finding, the committee noted the university failed to heed clear warning signs; did not have proper procedures in place to monitor rules compliance; failed to regulate access to practice and facilities, including locker rooms; and in some instances failed to take a proactive stance or investigate concerns.”
11:45 am on June 30th, 2010
Dear NCAA : Thanks for making honest folks out of us . We can’t help ourselves . We are so pretty we find it hard to play by the rules so in overview we need help and appreciate all the hard work you have put in to help us to this end . We mean well but tend to act and react on an adolescent level . Again , thanks until the next time . Please keep in touch periodically as we appreciate all your time and effort .
THE UNIVERSITY OF SPOILED CHILDREN
ALUMNI AND FANS ASSOCIATION
10:46 am on July 4th, 2010
Wow!! The NCAA old men screwed up again!! And you drag UF into this because you need readers.
What would any of these guys do if they didn’t have each other to lean on???
What a way to make a buck -
In the end - the NCAA is the most worthless group of old farts who live off the work of kids - call this child labor - so they can make millions and keep it all.
The NCAA = whores.
3:21 pm on July 5th, 2010
This is another story that makes Reggie Bush look like what he is, and that is a total douche. Reggie blows Harvin off, because why? Perhaps Reggie did not want another dynamic play maker on the roster that would take plays and the focus from him. This just stinks of Reggie continuing to be all about Reggie, he knew he had a responsibility to host Harvin and sell him on everything the USC experience could be, but instead left him hanging in his hotel room and never showed up or called him. Any other school would have rolled out everything they had (and probably did) to sign Harvin, but Reggie being all about Reggie wanted to insure that Harvin felt disrespected and thus would have no interest in coming to USC.
The same Reggie that could not wait a couple of years to turn pro and get paid, but rather had to also be taken care of while he was in college knowing full well that he was jeopardizing a program and the effort and legacy of every guy that suited up along side of him.
Let us remember that this issue came to light, because Reggie took everything he could get from these guys (Lake and partner) who absolutely had no affiliation in any form with USC, and then refused to sign a representation agreement with them once he declared for the NFL Draft. Lake went public, when Reggie being the douche that he is, refused to at least pay the guy back for all the expenses he incurred on behalf of Reggie and his family during their relationship building phase. Translated not only did Reggie and his family take Lake for everything they could get out of him and not sign with him (understandable - Lake was not an established or credible Rep), but then Reggie stiffed him for several years (did finally settle after litigation) on paying him back. As an SC person, I would have traded Reggie for Percy. Percy had some off-field issues, but nothing that destroyed a program.
9:36 pm on July 5th, 2010
It’s the NCAA…They do not have to have the truth…
9:00 am on July 6th, 2010
Dear Soup,
Please respond to every response on here. That way everyone will have a personalized diatribe from you.
Oh, and what organization can handout punishment to innocent students for violations committed before the student went to the school? Your beloved NCAA! Don’t forget that ‘affix’ has two ‘f’s in it, especially if you are going to check the dictionary before your next post.
As much as you are approving of the decision (right or wrong aside for the moment), you haven’t acknowledged the inconsistencies in the COI’s handling of interviews, which seems (from the eye of a fan of CFB and no team in particular) awfully egregious. Reggie, in all probability, benefitted in an improper way (albeit his family that gained the most), and the case can be made that USC should have caught on. Is that as bad as physical proof of payoffs? No. Is it worse than videotaped transactions of cash? Uh-uh. ‘Maybe’ should not be enough. And if you wish to defend the NCAA and the COI as the right way, may God have Mercy on your soul.
You’re probably even a fan of the BCS.
4:10 pm on July 6th, 2010
Thanks Bill for the invitation.
I will happily take you up on your offer. Thank you also, for the personal correction on my misspelling of “affix.” Your correction of my one spelling error in the two thousand words I have typed here has certainly put me in my place. Not only is it totally relevant to your argument but it also is the exact type of civility that all us non-USC fans are lacking.
I only wish I had the civility to take pot shots at other peoples spelling errors and inability to react to a automated red line below a word. Instead I am stuck wading thru and rebuffing your flawed logic. (by the way I misspelled “thru” there ; - ) and that is a smiley face winking fruitcake.)
Let me instead try your superior method:
“You, Bill, are probably even a fan of the nazi’s.”
Wow that feels really good, dare I say refreshing. I am no longer burdened by logic or any upstanding tact. Now I can say things like: my school is at no fault despite conceding that, “Reggie, in all probability, benefitted in an improper way (albeit his family that gained the most), and the case can be made that USC should have caught on.”
No….
Wait….
Alas I cannot.
My instincts for self-preservation cannot agree with your stupid.
11:55 am on July 11th, 2010
give the ncaa a little time, the florida program is as dirty as the usc program.